Comments on: Reward Less, Get Less http://educationnext.org/reward-less-get-less/ Education Next is a journal of opinion and research about education policy. Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:17:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Karl Wheatley http://educationnext.org/reward-less-get-less/comment-page-1/#comment-1279 Karl Wheatley Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:07:51 +0000 http://content.hks.harvard.edu/educationnext/?p=49626519#comment-1279 Test scores are poor predictors of real-world success and only have inflated predictive power in school settings where folks haven't caught on that most of what matters isn't on the test. China, Korea, Singapore and Korea are all moving away from standardized, narrowly-academic, test-driven schooling because they have discovered the profound limitations of this approach. Meanwhile, what "works" depends partly on culture, and if American kids don't have the study-till-I-drop-to-survive motivation found in some countries, then tap into what they do have--which includes that it is awesome to help others. What better reasons to study science than to cure cancer, design cleaner fuels, reverse global warming etc. Morality isn't a distraction-it's the most powerful force for learning there is. The last thing we want to do on this small planet is raise children who believe the future is/must be an endless contest to beat others. Never mind that competition backfires strikingly to improve overall learning, We owe to our children to develop a more humane and moral world than that. The deepest goals of education are to figure out how we can ensure that everyone on the planet can live a healthy, productive, meaningful life. Test scores are poor predictors of real-world success and only have inflated predictive power in school settings where folks haven’t caught on that most of what matters isn’t on the test.

China, Korea, Singapore and Korea are all moving away from standardized, narrowly-academic, test-driven schooling because they have discovered the profound limitations of this approach.

Meanwhile, what “works” depends partly on culture, and if American kids don’t have the study-till-I-drop-to-survive motivation found in some countries, then tap into what they do have–which includes that it is awesome to help others. What better reasons to study science than to cure cancer, design cleaner fuels, reverse global warming etc. Morality isn’t a distraction-it’s the most powerful force for learning there is.

The last thing we want to do on this small planet is raise children who believe the future is/must be an endless contest to beat others. Never mind that competition backfires strikingly to improve overall learning, We owe to our children to develop a more humane and moral world than that. The deepest goals of education are to figure out how we can ensure that everyone on the planet can live a healthy, productive, meaningful life.

]]> By: Joyce Yang http://educationnext.org/reward-less-get-less/comment-page-1/#comment-1197 Joyce Yang Tue, 05 Jan 2010 11:02:55 +0000 http://content.hks.harvard.edu/educationnext/?p=49626519#comment-1197 what is knowledge and skills without concern for others? if the primary task of the school is to teach knowledge and skills, who will teach care and concern for others? what is knowledge and skills without concern for others? if the primary task of the school is to teach knowledge and skills, who will teach care and concern for others?

]]> By: Timothy Underwood http://educationnext.org/reward-less-get-less/comment-page-1/#comment-1066 Timothy Underwood Fri, 11 Dec 2009 23:40:27 +0000 http://content.hks.harvard.edu/educationnext/?p=49626519#comment-1066 I really don't think you have a sense for the level of competitiveness involved in getting into a really good US college, students whose aim is to get into a top 25 school in the US are not that much less competitive or obsessed with the tests. However in the US there are other schools, and that no matter how poorly someone does in high school there will be college options available. Additionally, as someone with solid technical skills (I just graduated from Berkeley with a degree in applied math) I am extremely aware of the emphasis companies put on having 'soft skills'. For a good position, in a good field, where you are going to be playing with numbers most of the day, companies view it as absolutely essential that you can work well in a team. It is vital that you can write, and communicate, and are able to avoid stepping on peoples toes, etc. Read job postings for entry level positions if you want to see what companies actually care about. I'm not aware of any real discussion about how these lacks are actually harming US business. And no matter how good our education system is for natives, so long as we allow open borders there would be lots of foreigners working in the US. For two reasons, there are far more opportunities here, and no matter how good our education system is, the top quantile Indian grads are going to be better than the fourth quantile of American grads. So no matter how competitive, or skilled Americans are, there will be smart foreigners who are better than most Americans. The thing is, this isn't bad for those Americans who aren't as smart as them. It’s a good thing. The real world is a place where people collaborating creates opportunities for everyone, and bigger pies. A Darwinian survival of the fittest metaphor just doesn't fit (of course Darwinian metaphors don't fit actual evolution either...). Other people doing better is usually better for you unless (and sometimes even if) you are directly competing with them. Those smart foreign workers are driving employment, economic growth, and most importantly new technologies which are benefiting everyone, people who grew up in America, people in China and India, people in Europe, everyone. The American education system fails those who are looking for social mobility, but as far as I know its not really failing smart young Americans or American businesses (what is the top major today, the one which has sucked all of those students away from Math, Science and Engineering? Business. Ie, students are trying to get the jobs which companies actually are paying for, instead of the ones which pundits say they want). This actually brings up my first instinctive reaction to ideas for making sure students are actually in lectures. For most smart students, much of the time spent in lecture and many of their assignments, are also wasted time. Figuring out how to make sure they waste their precious and limited time on earth doing pointless busy work hardly seems like an improvement. I really don’t think you have a sense for the level of competitiveness involved in getting into a really good US college, students whose aim is to get into a top 25 school in the US are not that much less competitive or obsessed with the tests. However in the US there are other schools, and that no matter how poorly someone does in high school there will be college options available.

Additionally, as someone with solid technical skills (I just graduated from Berkeley with a degree in applied math) I am extremely aware of the emphasis companies put on having ’soft skills’. For a good position, in a good field, where you are going to be playing with numbers most of the day, companies view it as absolutely essential that you can work well in a team. It is vital that you can write, and communicate, and are able to avoid stepping on peoples toes, etc. Read job postings for entry level positions if you want to see what companies actually care about.

I’m not aware of any real discussion about how these lacks are actually harming US business. And no matter how good our education system is for natives, so long as we allow open borders there would be lots of foreigners working in the US. For two reasons, there are far more opportunities here, and no matter how good our education system is, the top quantile Indian grads are going to be better than the fourth quantile of American grads. So no matter how competitive, or skilled Americans are, there will be smart foreigners who are better than most Americans.

The thing is, this isn’t bad for those Americans who aren’t as smart as them. It’s a good thing. The real world is a place where people collaborating creates opportunities for everyone, and bigger pies. A Darwinian survival of the fittest metaphor just doesn’t fit (of course Darwinian metaphors don’t fit actual evolution either…). Other people doing better is usually better for you unless (and sometimes even if) you are directly competing with them. Those smart foreign workers are driving employment, economic growth, and most importantly new technologies which are benefiting everyone, people who grew up in America, people in China and India, people in Europe, everyone.

The American education system fails those who are looking for social mobility, but as far as I know its not really failing smart young Americans or American businesses (what is the top major today, the one which has sucked all of those students away from Math, Science and Engineering? Business. Ie, students are trying to get the jobs which companies actually are paying for, instead of the ones which pundits say they want). This actually brings up my first instinctive reaction to ideas for making sure students are actually in lectures. For most smart students, much of the time spent in lecture and many of their assignments, are also wasted time. Figuring out how to make sure they waste their precious and limited time on earth doing pointless busy work hardly seems like an improvement.

]]> By: karlwheatley http://educationnext.org/reward-less-get-less/comment-page-1/#comment-719 karlwheatley Fri, 06 Nov 2009 05:41:32 +0000 http://content.hks.harvard.edu/educationnext/?p=49626519#comment-719 There is no question that if we follow dull curriculum models, paying kids will seem necessary, and even appear effective compared to the alternatives.However, if we use more effective, more interest-based models, kids will learn more long-term and there won't be any perceived need to pay kids to learn. If it seems necessary to pay kids to learn, the curriculum, methods or culture are broken. We need to solve poverty in a serious way that gives dignity to the adults in the household. There is no question that if we follow dull curriculum models, paying kids will seem necessary, and even appear effective compared to the alternatives.However, if we use more effective, more interest-based models, kids will learn more long-term and there won’t be any perceived need to pay kids to learn. If it seems necessary to pay kids to learn, the curriculum, methods or culture are broken.

We need to solve poverty in a serious way that gives dignity to the adults in the household.

]]> By: Mark Bauerlein http://educationnext.org/reward-less-get-less/comment-page-1/#comment-199 Mark Bauerlein Tue, 15 Sep 2009 19:37:25 +0000 http://content.hks.harvard.edu/educationnext/?p=49626519#comment-199 Yes, it would be good to follow the Asian students, Gerald, and see how they fare in later years. I think, though, that the citation of "soft skills" is overdone. What I see in surveys of workplaces by National Association of Manufacturers, College Board, and Achieve is that businesses are deeply dissatisfied with the hard-skills levels of recent grads. The College Board estimates that corporate America now spends $3.1 billion on remedial writing training for its own workers. And let's remember that the most popular activity in out of school time for American teens is still TV. Yes, it would be good to follow the Asian students, Gerald, and see how they fare in later years. I think, though, that the citation of “soft skills” is overdone. What I see in surveys of workplaces by National Association of Manufacturers, College Board, and Achieve is that businesses are deeply dissatisfied with the hard-skills levels of recent grads. The College Board estimates that corporate America now spends $3.1 billion on remedial writing training for its own workers. And let’s remember that the most popular activity in out of school time for American teens is still TV.

]]> By: Gerald Bracey http://educationnext.org/reward-less-get-less/comment-page-1/#comment-192 Gerald Bracey Mon, 14 Sep 2009 22:42:11 +0000 http://content.hks.harvard.edu/educationnext/?p=49626519#comment-192 I think 2 Million Minutes is a great video that send precisely the opposite message of what Bob Compton intended. The Indian and Chinese kids have no options. The American kids do. And the kinds of extracurricular activities the American kids engage in build precisely the kinds of "soft skills" employers want. A McKenzie study of 9 occupations, including engineering, found that 9 of 10 Chinese college graduates would lack the skills to work for a multinational corporation. I'd like to see the long term consequences of the Chinese and Indian kids not getting the universities they suffered so much to get into. Must be horribly depressing and a terrible loss of "face." Of course, any generalizations based on 6 people are absurd. I know of places in Northern India where there are so many educated people that thousands show up for even relatively low-level white collar jobs. This drives home the point that education in and of itself does not create jobs. The principal at Carmel tells me the kids are doing fine at Indiana andPurdue. Two Million Minutes is as full of stuff as a Christmas turkey. Fortunately, Roy Romer's attempt to use it in the EdinO8 campaign (another attempt to create fear about schools) failed. I think 2 Million Minutes is a great video that send precisely the opposite message of what Bob Compton intended. The Indian and Chinese kids have no options. The American kids do. And the kinds of extracurricular activities the American kids engage in build precisely the kinds of “soft skills” employers want. A McKenzie study of 9 occupations, including engineering, found that 9 of 10 Chinese college graduates would lack the skills to work for a multinational corporation.

I’d like to see the long term consequences of the Chinese and Indian kids not getting the universities they suffered so much to get into. Must be horribly depressing and a terrible loss of “face.”

Of course, any generalizations based on 6 people are absurd. I know of places in Northern India where there are so many educated people that thousands show up for even relatively low-level white collar jobs. This drives home the point that education in and of itself does not create jobs.

The principal at Carmel tells me the kids are doing fine at Indiana andPurdue.

Two Million Minutes is as full of stuff as a Christmas turkey. Fortunately, Roy Romer’s attempt to use it in the EdinO8 campaign (another attempt to create fear about schools) failed.

]]> By: Mark Bauerlein http://educationnext.org/reward-less-get-less/comment-page-1/#comment-173 Mark Bauerlein Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:23:14 +0000 http://content.hks.harvard.edu/educationnext/?p=49626519#comment-173 You seem to assume, David, that when kids and parents hear the message, "If you don't study, you won't be here," then they will simply leave. I think the point of the film was that the firm message, in fact, makes for better students. You seem to assume, David, that when kids and parents hear the message, “If you don’t study, you won’t be here,” then they will simply leave. I think the point of the film was that the firm message, in fact, makes for better students.

]]> By: David Stuckel http://educationnext.org/reward-less-get-less/comment-page-1/#comment-170 David Stuckel Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:19:46 +0000 http://content.hks.harvard.edu/educationnext/?p=49626519#comment-170 Yada, yada, yada. Another description of the problem, but no mention of the solution. Nice L.A. charter school. If you don't study, you won't be here. Where will they be? How do we get any closer to an overall answer by just removing underachievers? It makes the average look better, but doesn't McDonald's have enough workers now? Or should we just tell everyone to sink or swim. Swimmers get everything and sinkers get nothing? Yada, yada, yada. Another description of the problem, but no mention of the solution. Nice L.A. charter school. If you don’t study, you won’t be here. Where will they be? How do we get any closer to an overall answer by just removing underachievers? It makes the average look better, but doesn’t McDonald’s have enough workers now? Or should we just tell everyone to sink or swim. Swimmers get everything and sinkers get nothing?

]]> By: Peter Meyer http://educationnext.org/reward-less-get-less/comment-page-1/#comment-153 Peter Meyer Sat, 05 Sep 2009 18:34:40 +0000 http://content.hks.harvard.edu/educationnext/?p=49626519#comment-153 Mark, great piece. I once did some tutoring of 4th graders and often handed out dollar bills for work well-done. The kids, mostly poor, were extremely pleased -- and were good students. One day, I reached into my pocket and came up with a $20. It was all I had, so I gave it the boy, who looked at it and burst into tears. Word of the gift must have spread rapidly, because I was called aside by the principal the following day and scolded for giving kids money to learn. "We don't do that here," he said. So, what do you do? I wanted to ask, but didn't. My own sense of things is that American public schools -- and American culture in general -- have gotten fat and lazy and have given up on the notion of incentives and disincentives, with lifetime tenure being one of the most remarkable disincentivizing practices ever invented. "No pain, no gain," the nuns used to say. Mark, great piece. I once did some tutoring of 4th graders and often handed out dollar bills for work well-done. The kids, mostly poor, were extremely pleased — and were good students. One day, I reached into my pocket and came up with a $20. It was all I had, so I gave it the boy, who looked at it and burst into tears. Word of the gift must have spread rapidly, because I was called aside by the principal the following day and scolded for giving kids money to learn. “We don’t do that here,” he said. So, what do you do? I wanted to ask, but didn’t. My own sense of things is that American public schools — and American culture in general — have gotten fat and lazy and have given up on the notion of incentives and disincentives, with lifetime tenure being one of the most remarkable disincentivizing practices ever invented. “No pain, no gain,” the nuns used to say.

]]> By: Mark bauerlein http://educationnext.org/reward-less-get-less/comment-page-1/#comment-97 Mark bauerlein Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:31:44 +0000 http://content.hks.harvard.edu/educationnext/?p=49626519#comment-97 I think, Corey, that the primary task of school is not to teach benevolence, but to teach knowledge and skills. I think, Corey, that the primary task of school is not to teach benevolence, but to teach knowledge and skills.

]]> By: Corey http://educationnext.org/reward-less-get-less/comment-page-1/#comment-93 Corey Thu, 27 Aug 2009 00:59:37 +0000 http://content.hks.harvard.edu/educationnext/?p=49626519#comment-93 Sounds like we're doing something right if our students aspire to help others. Sounds like we’re doing something right if our students aspire to help others.

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