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	<title>Comments on: The Decline of Ed Schools: Ten Questions and Answers</title>
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	<description>Education Next is a journal of opinion and research about education policy.</description>
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		<title>By: John Magoun</title>
		<link>http://educationnext.org/the-decline-of-ed-schools-ten-questions-and-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-373</link>
		<dc:creator>John Magoun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 05:14:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationnext.org/?p=49629952#comment-373</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t follow Mr. Hoss&#039;s argument. Is he suggesting that doctors and lawyers have been trained by their professional schools to deal with the same 30 patients or clients a day, all day, every day, with chronic complaints or suits that need continual attention? So that there is no time or facility for dealing with each suit or complaint individually? 

I don&#039;t know about lawyers, but I imagine doctors do encounter this situation occasionally. Say, during a catastrophic natural disaster, or on the battlefield. In which cases a very large percentage of their patients die - yet they typically remain &quot;in business&quot; afterwards because everyone understands that such a workload is simply unsupportable. Lawyers, of course, just remain generally unpopular because they have rigged the entire legal structure of society on their behalf to provide them with permanent low-intensity, high-remuneration employment.

I&#039;m sure most teachers would love to have the equivalent of an attorney&#039;s or a doctor&#039;s practice, where students would come into an office, one by one, receive instruction for an hour, and then go away for a year or so. I bet each student would receive an education entirely geared to their own strengths, weaknesses, and readiness, just as Mr. Hoss expects they should.

Clearly, education is not a profession like the others cited in this article, either in terms of practitioner-client relations, or in terms of fees earned. Why not start by admitting that, before comparing the universities&#039; education programs to law schools or criticizing the quality of training or recruitment that takes place in the so-called profession of education?

For some reason society chooses not to hire teachers at the same ratio to clients (students) that other professionals take for granted: about 1:1 per hour or even less. If society did so, and if they paid the teachers at the same rates as these other practitioners charge, the ed schools would probably develop wonderful pedagogies and research-based solutions for every type of student&#039;s education. On the other hand, I doubt the national population can provide a recruitment base for that many very highly qualified and highly educated teachers.

Not that Ed Schools are so wonderful - I agree that they are terribly weak academically, compared to other graduate schools. But is that the fault of the schools somehow, so that the &quot;online&quot; replacements are going to be so much more wonderful? (As you say, no one has even begun to show that online training is superior, as education, to in-class training.  All anyone knows and likes is that it&#039;s much cheaper, because the teachers don&#039;t have to meet or get to know their students at all - a feature that Mr. Hoss seems to think makes for a rather poor education.) Or is the problem that we as a society have always wanted  our public education to be cheap, fast, and excellent? I, and anyone who has ever worked for a living, knows that you can&#039;t have all three of those at once.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t follow Mr. Hoss&#8217;s argument. Is he suggesting that doctors and lawyers have been trained by their professional schools to deal with the same 30 patients or clients a day, all day, every day, with chronic complaints or suits that need continual attention? So that there is no time or facility for dealing with each suit or complaint individually? </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know about lawyers, but I imagine doctors do encounter this situation occasionally. Say, during a catastrophic natural disaster, or on the battlefield. In which cases a very large percentage of their patients die &#8211; yet they typically remain &#8220;in business&#8221; afterwards because everyone understands that such a workload is simply unsupportable. Lawyers, of course, just remain generally unpopular because they have rigged the entire legal structure of society on their behalf to provide them with permanent low-intensity, high-remuneration employment.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure most teachers would love to have the equivalent of an attorney&#8217;s or a doctor&#8217;s practice, where students would come into an office, one by one, receive instruction for an hour, and then go away for a year or so. I bet each student would receive an education entirely geared to their own strengths, weaknesses, and readiness, just as Mr. Hoss expects they should.</p>
<p>Clearly, education is not a profession like the others cited in this article, either in terms of practitioner-client relations, or in terms of fees earned. Why not start by admitting that, before comparing the universities&#8217; education programs to law schools or criticizing the quality of training or recruitment that takes place in the so-called profession of education?</p>
<p>For some reason society chooses not to hire teachers at the same ratio to clients (students) that other professionals take for granted: about 1:1 per hour or even less. If society did so, and if they paid the teachers at the same rates as these other practitioners charge, the ed schools would probably develop wonderful pedagogies and research-based solutions for every type of student&#8217;s education. On the other hand, I doubt the national population can provide a recruitment base for that many very highly qualified and highly educated teachers.</p>
<p>Not that Ed Schools are so wonderful &#8211; I agree that they are terribly weak academically, compared to other graduate schools. But is that the fault of the schools somehow, so that the &#8220;online&#8221; replacements are going to be so much more wonderful? (As you say, no one has even begun to show that online training is superior, as education, to in-class training.  All anyone knows and likes is that it&#8217;s much cheaper, because the teachers don&#8217;t have to meet or get to know their students at all &#8211; a feature that Mr. Hoss seems to think makes for a rather poor education.) Or is the problem that we as a society have always wanted  our public education to be cheap, fast, and excellent? I, and anyone who has ever worked for a living, knows that you can&#8217;t have all three of those at once.</p>
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		<title>By: James W. Guthrie</title>
		<link>http://educationnext.org/the-decline-of-ed-schools-ten-questions-and-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-308</link>
		<dc:creator>James W. Guthrie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 10:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationnext.org/?p=49629952#comment-308</guid>
		<description>I greatly appreciate Mr. Hoss&#039; additions</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I greatly appreciate Mr. Hoss&#8217; additions</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Hoss</title>
		<link>http://educationnext.org/the-decline-of-ed-schools-ten-questions-and-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-304</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Hoss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:53:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationnext.org/?p=49629952#comment-304</guid>
		<description>As a graduate of two of these prominent ed schools I am very disappointed these schools have done little or nothing to improve contemporary pedagogy. 

Many twenty first century educators employ the same strategies used by their predecessors from decades past. The teacher standing in front of the class giving the same lesson to everyone suggests that all students have the same strengths and weaknesses as well as the same levels of readiness as every other student in the class. They don&#039;t.

If medical doctors or attorneys attempted to operate in this manner they&#039;d be out of business by the end of the week.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a graduate of two of these prominent ed schools I am very disappointed these schools have done little or nothing to improve contemporary pedagogy. </p>
<p>Many twenty first century educators employ the same strategies used by their predecessors from decades past. The teacher standing in front of the class giving the same lesson to everyone suggests that all students have the same strengths and weaknesses as well as the same levels of readiness as every other student in the class. They don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>If medical doctors or attorneys attempted to operate in this manner they&#8217;d be out of business by the end of the week.</p>
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		<title>By: James W. Guthrie</title>
		<link>http://educationnext.org/the-decline-of-ed-schools-ten-questions-and-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-298</link>
		<dc:creator>James W. Guthrie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 16:07:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationnext.org/?p=49629952#comment-298</guid>
		<description>I am flattered that someone as knowledgeable and thoughtful as Sherman Dorn would comment on my blog regarding the forthcoming demise of education schools.  Permit me a few clarifying responses.

Low SAT scores among those who assert they are going into education are different from SAT scores of those actually enroll in ed schools.  Aspirant scores are lower than actual enrollees, but not a whole lot lower.  More importantly, however, the low scores of ed school or teacher training aspirants evidence the low regard in which ed schools are held.  If top tier SAT scorers wanted to enter conventional teacher training, would we not have a different view of ed schools? We certainly would.

Now, as to why no one clamors for alternative routes for instructing and certifying nurses, engineers, lawyers, physicians, and business leaders.  Sherman is right here.  There are few such calls.  There is a good reason why.  These other professions operate from a solid base in scientific principle or, in the case of law, long standing craft knowledge.  Ed Schools can make no such claim.  This is precisely why they cannot legitimately proclaim hegemony over the preparation of teachers.  They have no scientific base upon which to operate and no legitimacy as a consequence,  Alternative routes to being a teacher hold equal legitimacy, are attracting more and more able individuals, and offer a less expensive path to teaching.  Ed schools are suffering as a result.

Jim Guthrie</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am flattered that someone as knowledgeable and thoughtful as Sherman Dorn would comment on my blog regarding the forthcoming demise of education schools.  Permit me a few clarifying responses.</p>
<p>Low SAT scores among those who assert they are going into education are different from SAT scores of those actually enroll in ed schools.  Aspirant scores are lower than actual enrollees, but not a whole lot lower.  More importantly, however, the low scores of ed school or teacher training aspirants evidence the low regard in which ed schools are held.  If top tier SAT scorers wanted to enter conventional teacher training, would we not have a different view of ed schools? We certainly would.</p>
<p>Now, as to why no one clamors for alternative routes for instructing and certifying nurses, engineers, lawyers, physicians, and business leaders.  Sherman is right here.  There are few such calls.  There is a good reason why.  These other professions operate from a solid base in scientific principle or, in the case of law, long standing craft knowledge.  Ed Schools can make no such claim.  This is precisely why they cannot legitimately proclaim hegemony over the preparation of teachers.  They have no scientific base upon which to operate and no legitimacy as a consequence,  Alternative routes to being a teacher hold equal legitimacy, are attracting more and more able individuals, and offer a less expensive path to teaching.  Ed schools are suffering as a result.</p>
<p>Jim Guthrie</p>
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		<title>By: Sherman Dorn</title>
		<link>http://educationnext.org/the-decline-of-ed-schools-ten-questions-and-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-282</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherman Dorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 17:44:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationnext.org/?p=49629952#comment-282</guid>
		<description>Jim Guthrie&#039;s answers mix the sensible (the tenuous link between degrees and income in education, the large proportion of total degrees awarded in education) with the silly (the average GRE scores of those saying that they intend to go to graduate school in education, which is not necessarily connected to who applies and is admitted to graduate school, let alone who finishes). As Jim knows from the book he wrote with Geraldine Clifford, status games within universities contribute to the problems. I suspect many of the same criticisms could be lobbed at other professional schools, yet despite the economic disaster of the last year, no one is calling for the closure of business schools, and no one calls for the replacement of law, medicine, or nursing degrees with &quot;alt cert&quot; programs in law or health care.

Yes, teacher education programs need a better foundation in research. I am not convinced that the elimination of those programs from higher education would move things in the right direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim Guthrie&#8217;s answers mix the sensible (the tenuous link between degrees and income in education, the large proportion of total degrees awarded in education) with the silly (the average GRE scores of those saying that they intend to go to graduate school in education, which is not necessarily connected to who applies and is admitted to graduate school, let alone who finishes). As Jim knows from the book he wrote with Geraldine Clifford, status games within universities contribute to the problems. I suspect many of the same criticisms could be lobbed at other professional schools, yet despite the economic disaster of the last year, no one is calling for the closure of business schools, and no one calls for the replacement of law, medicine, or nursing degrees with &#8220;alt cert&#8221; programs in law or health care.</p>
<p>Yes, teacher education programs need a better foundation in research. I am not convinced that the elimination of those programs from higher education would move things in the right direction.</p>
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		<title>By: George Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://educationnext.org/the-decline-of-ed-schools-ten-questions-and-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-275</link>
		<dc:creator>George Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationnext.org/?p=49629952#comment-275</guid>
		<description>This withering post makes me wonder where one can go for some good news about actual progress vis a vis systematic K-12 reform.  While we all can cite anecdotal illustrations of academic excellence and innovation, the far more common story involves the absence of accountability and the protectionism cited by Mr. Guthrie.  I am completing three decades as an observer of urban K-12 issues and failures.  The absence of systematic change is the dominant trend that comes to mind.  Am I too jaded?  What am I missing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This withering post makes me wonder where one can go for some good news about actual progress vis a vis systematic K-12 reform.  While we all can cite anecdotal illustrations of academic excellence and innovation, the far more common story involves the absence of accountability and the protectionism cited by Mr. Guthrie.  I am completing three decades as an observer of urban K-12 issues and failures.  The absence of systematic change is the dominant trend that comes to mind.  Am I too jaded?  What am I missing?</p>
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